演講MP3+雙語(yǔ)文稿:我是怎么逃出美國(guó)的極端主義運(yùn)動(dòng)

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【演講者及介紹】Christian Picciolini

反極端主義專家·克里斯蒂安·皮喬利尼致力于幫助他人對(duì)抗種族主義和極端主義。

14歲時(shí)，克里斯蒂安·皮喬利尼(ChristianPicciolini)從一個(gè)天真的少年變成了白人至上主義者，并很快成為美國(guó)第一個(gè)新納粹光頭黨的領(lǐng)袖。他是如何變得激進(jìn)的?他最終是如何脫離這場(chǎng)運(yùn)動(dòng)的?在這個(gè)充滿勇氣的演講中，Picciolini分享了一個(gè)讓人驚訝的和反直覺(jué)的解決方法來(lái)對(duì)付各種形式的仇恨。

【演講主題】我加入了美國(guó)的新納粹運(yùn)動(dòng)，還有我是怎么逃出來(lái)的

【中英文字幕】

翻譯者Lilian Chiu 校對(duì)者：品妤 劉

00:13

My journey away from violent extremismbegan 22 years ago, when I denounced racism and left the American whitesupremacist skinhead movement that I had helped build.

我走出暴力極端主義的旅程開(kāi)始于 22 年前，當(dāng)我公然譴責(zé)了種族主義并離開(kāi)了我曾經(jīng)協(xié)助建立的美國(guó)白人至上光頭黨。

00:24

(Cheers and applause)

（歡呼與掌聲）

00:30

I was just 22 years old at the time, but Ihad already spent eight years, from the time I was 14 years old, as one of theearliest and youngest members and an eventual leader within America's mostviolent hate movement.

當(dāng)時(shí)我只有 22 歲，但是我已經(jīng)花了 8 年，從我 14 歲開(kāi)始，成為了最早、最年輕的成員之一，最后還成為了美國(guó)最暴力的仇恨運(yùn)動(dòng)的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人。

00:44

But I wasn't born into hate; in fact, itwas quite the opposite. I had a relatively normal childhood. My parents areItalian immigrants who came to the United States in the mid-1960s and settledon the South Side of Chicago, where they eventually met, and opened a smallbeauty shop. Right after I was born, things got a little bit more difficult.They struggled to survive with raising a young family and a new business, oftenworking seven days a week, 14 hours a day, taking on second and third jobs justto earn a meager living. And quality time with my parents was prettynonexistent. Even though I knew they loved me very much, growing up, I feltabandoned. I was lonely, and I started to withdraw, and then I started toresent my parents and become very angry. And as I was growing up, through myteenage years, I started to act out to try and get attention from my parents.

但我并不是生于仇恨；事實(shí)正好相反。我的童年還算挺正常的。我的父母是意大利移民，在 1960 年代中期來(lái)到的美國(guó)，在芝加哥的南城安頓了下來(lái)。他們?cè)谀抢锵嘧R(shí)，并開(kāi)了一家小型美容店。我出生以后沒(méi)多久，生活就變得更困難一些。他們艱難地生活著，要養(yǎng)活一個(gè)年輕的家庭和生意，常常一周要工作 7 天，一天 14 個(gè)小時(shí)，還要兼職多份工作只為賺取一點(diǎn)微薄的生活費(fèi)。和父母相處的寶貴時(shí)光基本是不存在的。雖然我知道他們非常愛(ài)我，但成長(zhǎng)的過(guò)程中，我覺(jué)得我被拋棄了。我很孤獨(dú)，我開(kāi)始遠(yuǎn)離一切。接著，我開(kāi)始憎恨我的父母，我變得很憤怒。我慢慢長(zhǎng)大，在青春期，我開(kāi)始做出格的事以試圖得到我父母的注意力。

01:53

And one day, when I was 14, I was standingin an alley, and I was smoking a joint, and a man who was twice my age, with ashaved head and tall black boots, came up to me, and he snatched the joint frommy lips. Then he put his hand on my shoulder and he looked me in the eyes, andhe said, "That's what the communists and the Jews want you to do to keepyou docile." I was 14 years old, I'd been trading baseball cards andwatching "Happy Days" -- I didn't really know what a Jew was.

有一天，我 14 歲時(shí)，我正站在一個(gè)小巷里，吸著大麻，一名光頭男子，年紀(jì)有我的兩倍，穿著黑色長(zhǎng)靴，走到了我面前，從我的唇邊奪走了大麻。然后他把手放到了我的肩上，看著我的眼睛，說(shuō)到：“這正是共產(chǎn)黨和猶太人想讓你做的，把你變得容易馴服。”當(dāng)時(shí)我 14 歲，我還在交換棒球卡片，看“歡樂(lè)時(shí)光”（電視劇）－－我并不太知道什么是猶太人。

02:29

(Laughter)

（笑）

02:31

It's true. And the only communist that Iknew was the bad Russian guy in my favorite Rocky movie.

這是真的。而我唯一知道的共產(chǎn)黨員是在我最喜歡的“洛奇”系列電影中的俄羅斯反派。

02:38

(Laughter)

（笑）

02:40

And since I'm here baring my soul with you,I can reveal that I did not even know what the word "docile" meant.

既然我是在這里坦白，我可以告訴你當(dāng)時(shí)我也不知道“馴服”這個(gè)詞是什么意思。

02:47

(Laughter)

（笑）

02:48

Dead serious.

我是認(rèn)真的。

02:50

But it was as if this man in this alley hadoffered me a lifeline. For 14 years, I'd felt marginalized and bullied. I hadlow self-esteem. And frankly, I didn't know who I was, where I belonged, orwhat my purpose was. I was lost. And overnight, because this man had pulled mein, and I had grabbed onto that lifeline with every fiber of my being, I hadgone from "Joanie Loves Chachi" to full-blown Nazi. Overnight.

但那個(gè)巷子里的男人像是給了我一條生命線。14 年來(lái)，我曾感到被邊緣化，被欺負(fù)。我的自尊心很低。說(shuō)實(shí)話，我并不知道我是誰(shuí)，我歸屬于哪里，我的人生目的是什么。我很迷茫。一夜間，因?yàn)檫@個(gè)男人拽了我一把，我用盡全身抓緊了那條生命線。我已從“喬安妮愛(ài)恰奇”（電視劇） 走向了徹頭徹尾的納粹。一夜間。

03:29

I started to listen to the rhetoric andbelieve it. I started to watch very closely as the leaders of this organizationwould target vulnerable young people who felt marginalized and then draw themin with promises of paradise that were broken. And then I started to recruitmyself. I started to do that by making white-power music. And soon, I becamethe leader of that infamous organization that was led by that man in that alleywho recruited me that day, who was America's first neo-Nazi skinhead and whohad radicalized me. For the next eight years, I believed the lies that I hadbeen fed. And though I saw no evidence of it whatsoever, I didn't hesitate toblame every Jewish person in the world for what I thought was a white, Europeangenocide being promoted by them through a multiculturalist agenda. I blamedpeople of color for the crime and violence and the drugs in the city,completely neglecting the fact that I was committing acts of violence on adaily basis, and that in many cases, it was white supremacists who werefunneling drugs into the inner cities. And I blamed immigrants for taking jobsfrom white Americans, completely neglecting the fact that my parents werehardworking immigrants who struggled to survive, despite not getting help fromanybody else.

我開(kāi)始傾聽(tīng)他們的言論，并相信它。我開(kāi)始密切的觀察著這個(gè)組織的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者們，他們會(huì)針對(duì)弱勢(shì)的、感到自己被邊緣化的年輕人，然后許下自己以后會(huì)違背的天堂般的承諾 來(lái)吸引他們。接著，我自己也開(kāi)始招募新人。為了招募人，我開(kāi)始制作宣傳白人至上的音樂(lè)。不久，我成為了那個(gè)聲名狼藉的組織的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者，之前的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人就是那個(gè)巷子里招募了我的男人，他是美國(guó)第一個(gè)新納粹光頭黨成員，并極端化了我。在接下來(lái)的八年中，我相信了那些喂給我的謊言。盡管我沒(méi)有看到任何證據(jù)，但我毫不猶豫的責(zé)怪了世界上每一個(gè)猶太人，因?yàn)槲乙詾樗麄冊(cè)谟枚辔幕氖鲁掏七M(jìn)歐洲白人的種族屠殺。我怪罪了有色人種，怪他們?cè)斐闪顺鞘欣锏姆缸?、暴力、和毒品，完全忽視了事?shí)上，我自己也天天都在犯下暴力行為。而且在很多時(shí)候，是白人至上主義者把毒品帶到了城市內(nèi)部。我怪罪了移民，怪他們搶走了美國(guó)白人的工作，完全忽視了事實(shí)上，我父母也是辛勤勞作的移民，需要奮斗以生存，即使沒(méi)有任何他人的幫助。

05:17

For the next eight years, I saw friendsdie, I saw others go to prison and inflict untold pain on countless victims andtheir families' lives. I heard horrific stories from young women in themovement, who'd been brutally raped by the very men they were conditioned totrust, and I myself committed acts of violence against people, solely for thecolor of their skin, who they loved, or the god that they prayed to. Istockpiled weapons for what I thought was an upcoming race war. I went to sixhigh schools; I was kicked out of four of them, one of them, twice. And 25years ago, I wrote and performed racist music that found its way to theinternet decades later and partially inspired a young white nationalist to walkinto a sacred Charleston, South Carolina, church and senselessly massacre nineinnocent people.

在接下來(lái)的八年里，我看到了朋友死去，看到了他人進(jìn)入監(jiān)獄并施加無(wú)法形容的痛苦到無(wú)數(shù)個(gè)受害者 和他們家人的生活。我從參與運(yùn)動(dòng)中年輕的女性 聽(tīng)到過(guò)可怕的故事，她們被自己習(xí)慣性信任的男人強(qiáng)奸，而我自己也對(duì)他人犯下了暴力行為，只因?yàn)樗麄兊哪w色，他們愛(ài)的人，或者他們祈禱的神。我積攢了武器，為了我以為會(huì)到來(lái)的種族戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)。我去了六所高中：我被四所開(kāi)除，其中一所被開(kāi)除了兩次。25 年前，我編寫(xiě)并表演了種族歧視的音樂(lè)。它十多年后傳到了網(wǎng)上，并部分的啟發(fā)了一個(gè)年輕的白人民族主義者走進(jìn)一個(gè)神圣的教堂，在查爾斯頓，南卡羅來(lái)納州然后毫無(wú)感覺(jué)的 屠殺了九個(gè)無(wú)辜的人。

06:28

But then my life changed. At 19 years old,I met a girl who was not in the movement, who didn't have a racist bone in herbody, and I fell in love with her. And at 19, we got married, and we had ourfirst son. And when I held my son in my arms in the delivery room that day, notonly did I reconnect with some of the innocence that I had lost at 14 yearsold, but it also began to challenge the very important things that drew me tothe movement to begin with: identity, community and purpose -- things that Ihad been struggling with as a young boy. And now, I struggled with the conceptof who I was again. Was I this neo-Nazi hatemonger, or was I a caring fatherand husband? Was my community the one that I had manufactured around me toboost my own ego, because I felt self-hatred for myself and I wanted to projectit onto others, or was it the one that I had physically given life to? Was mypurpose to scorch the earth or was it to make it a better place for my family?And suddenly, like a ton of bricks hit me, I became very confused with who I'dbeen for the last eight years. And if only I'd been brave enough to walk awayat that moment, to understand what the struggle was that was happening inside ofme, then maybe tragedy could have been averted.

但接著，我的人生改變了。19 歲時(shí)，我遇到了一個(gè)不在這個(gè)運(yùn)動(dòng)中的女孩。她身體里沒(méi)有一根種族歧視的骨頭。然后我愛(ài)上了她。19 歲時(shí)，我們結(jié)了婚，然后有了我們第一個(gè)兒子。當(dāng)那天我在產(chǎn)房中用雙手抱起我兒子時(shí)，我不只重新找回了一部分我 14 歲時(shí)丟到的純真，我也開(kāi)始質(zhì)疑最一開(kāi)始把我吸引進(jìn)這個(gè)運(yùn)動(dòng)的重要因素：身分，集體，和目的－－當(dāng)我還是小男孩時(shí)一直在掙扎的東西。而現(xiàn)在，我再一次掙扎于 “ 我是誰(shuí) ” 的概念。我是個(gè)煽動(dòng)仇恨的新納粹，還是一個(gè)有愛(ài)心的父親和丈夫？ 我的集體是那個(gè)我自己捏造出來(lái)的、 為了膨脹自我的集體，因?yàn)槲以?jīng)恨著自己 并想把這恨意投射到他人身上，還是那個(gè)給了我生命的社會(huì)？ 我的目的是把一切變成焦土，還是讓我的家庭活得更好？ 突然間，就像一噸磚塊 砸到了我身上，我變的非常困惑，不知道過(guò)去 8 年的我是誰(shuí)。如果當(dāng)時(shí)的我能足夠勇敢地走開(kāi)，能理解在我內(nèi)心所發(fā)生的斗爭(zhēng)，那悲劇就可能會(huì)被避免。

08:17

Instead, I did compromise. I took myselfoff the streets for the benefit of my family, because I was nervous that maybeI could go to jail or end up dead, and they would have to fend for themselves.So I stepped back as a leader, and instead I opened a record store that I wasgoing to sell white-power music in, of course, because I was importing it infrom Europe. But I knew that if I was just a racist store selling racist musicthe community would not allow me to be there. So I decided I was going to alsostock the shelves with other music, like punk rock and heavy metal and hip-hop.And while the white-power music that I was selling was 75 percent of my grossrevenue, because people were driving in from all over the country to buy itfrom the only store that was selling it,

但是我選擇了妥協(xié)。為了家庭，我離開(kāi)了街頭，因?yàn)閾?dān)心我可能會(huì)進(jìn)監(jiān)獄或者死去，導(dǎo)致我的家人會(huì)需要為自己謀生。所以我從領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者的位置退了一步，然后開(kāi)了一家唱片店。當(dāng)然，我打算賣宣傳白人至上的音樂(lè)，因?yàn)槲以趶臍W洲進(jìn)口這些唱片。不過(guò)我知道如果只是一個(gè)種族歧視的店家販賣種族歧視的音樂(lè)社區(qū)肯定不會(huì)容許我把店開(kāi)在那里。所以我決定也在架子上放些其它唱片，像是朋克搖滾、重金屬、和嘻哈。雖然我販賣的白人至上音樂(lè)占到了我總利潤(rùn)的 75 %，因?yàn)槿藗儠?huì)從全國(guó)各地開(kāi)車到這唯一一家賣這種音樂(lè)的店，

09:10

I also had customers come in to buy theother music. And eventually, they started to talk to me. One day, a young blackteen came in, and he was visibly upset. And I decided to ask him what waswrong. And he told me that his mother had been diagnosed with breast cancer.And suddenly, this young black teenager, who I'd never had a meaningfulconversation or interaction with, I was able to connect with, because my ownmother had been diagnosed with breast cancer, and I could feel his pain. Onanother occasion, a gay couple came in with their son, and it was undeniable tome that they loved their son in the same profound ways that I loved mine. Andsuddenly, I couldn't rationalize or justify the prejudice that I had in myhead.

但我也有顧客來(lái)買其它音樂(lè)。久而久之，他們也開(kāi)始和我交談。一天，一個(gè)年輕的黑人青年走了進(jìn)來(lái)，他看起來(lái)就很不開(kāi)心。而我決定問(wèn)問(wèn)他出了什么事。他告訴我他的母親被診斷為患有乳腺癌。忽然間，這個(gè)黑人青年，一個(gè)我之前從來(lái)沒(méi)有過(guò)任何有意義的交談或互動(dòng)的人，和我產(chǎn)生了聯(lián)系，因?yàn)槲易约旱哪赣H也被診斷患有乳腺癌，而我能感受到他的痛苦。還有一次，一個(gè)同性戀情侶和他們的兒子走了進(jìn)來(lái)，而我無(wú)法否認(rèn)他們愛(ài)著自己的兒子，就像我深深地愛(ài)著我兒子一樣。突然間，我無(wú)法再解釋或合理化之前腦海中的偏見(jiàn)。

10:13

I decided to pull the white-power musicfrom the inventory when I became too embarrassed to sell it in front of my newfriends. And of course, the store couldn't sustain itself, so I had to closeit. At that same time, I lost nearly everything in my life. I used it as anopportunity to walk away from the movement that I'd been a part of for eightyears, the only identity, community and purpose that I'd really known for mostof my life. So I had nobody. I lost my livelihood because I closed the store. Ididn't have a great relationship with my parents, even though they tried. Andmy wife and children left me, because I hadn't left the movement and disengagedquickly enough. And suddenly, I didn't know who I was again, or where I fit inor what my purpose was supposed to be. I was miserable inside, and I often wokeup in the morning wishing that I hadn't.

我決定把白人至上的音樂(lè)從庫(kù)存抽走，因?yàn)槲矣X(jué)得在新朋友面前賣這些音樂(lè)太慚愧了。當(dāng)然，我的店無(wú)法經(jīng)營(yíng)下去，所以我把它關(guān)了。同時(shí)，我失去了生命中幾乎所有的東西。我把它用作一個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)來(lái)離開(kāi)我曾參與了 8 年的運(yùn)動(dòng)：我大半生唯一知道的身分、集體、和目的。我沒(méi)有任何人。我丟掉了生計(jì)，因?yàn)榘训觋P(guān)了。我和父母的關(guān)系并不好，雖然他們有過(guò)嘗試。我的妻子和孩子離開(kāi)了我，因?yàn)槲也](méi)有及早離開(kāi)運(yùn)動(dòng)。突然，我再一次不知道我是誰(shuí)，我歸屬于哪里，或者我的目的應(yīng)該是什么。我的內(nèi)心很痛苦，每天早上醒來(lái)時(shí)，我常常希望我沒(méi)有醒來(lái)

11:17

About five years in, one of the few friendsthat I had was concerned about my well-being, and she came to me and she said,"You need to do something, because I don't want to see you die." Andshe suggested that I go apply for a job where she worked, at a company calledIBM. Yeah, I thought she was crazy, too.

大概五年后，我少數(shù)幾個(gè)朋友之一很擔(dān)憂我的身心健康，所以她找到了我，然后說(shuō)：“你必須做點(diǎn)什么，因?yàn)槲也幌肟茨闼廊??！彼ㄗh我去她工作的地方申請(qǐng)一個(gè)職位，一個(gè)叫 IBM 的公司。是啊，我也以為她瘋了。

11:39

(Laughter)

（笑）

11:40

Here I was, a closeted ex-Nazi covered inhate tattoos. I didn't go to college. I'd been kicked out of multiple highschools multiple times. I didn't even own a computer. But I went in, andsomehow, miraculously, I got the job. I was thrilled.

看看我，一個(gè)私底下滿身都是關(guān)于仇恨的刺青的前納粹。我沒(méi)上過(guò)大學(xué)。我曾被不止一所高中開(kāi)除過(guò)不止一次。我甚至都沒(méi)有電腦。但我走了進(jìn)去，不知道這樣，奇跡般地，我得到了一份工作。我非常激動(dòng)。

12:04

And then I became terrified to learn thatthey'd actually be putting me back at my old high school, the same one I gotkicked out of twice, to install their computers. This was a high school where Ihad committed acts of violence against students, against faculty; where I hadprotested out in front of the school for equal rights for whites and even had asit-in in the cafeteria to try and demand a white student union.

接著，我知道了一件讓我惶恐的事：他們安排我到 我原來(lái)的高中，就是那個(gè)把我開(kāi)除了兩次的高中，去安裝他們的電腦。在這所高中，我曾犯下暴力行為對(duì)學(xué)生，對(duì)老師；我曾在學(xué)校的門口抗議來(lái)爭(zhēng)取白人平權(quán)，我甚至在食堂靜坐抗議來(lái)試圖取得一個(gè)白人學(xué)生會(huì)。

12:34

And of course, as karma would have it,within the first couple of hours, who walks right by me but Mr. Johnny Holmes,the tough black security guard I had gotten in a fistfight with, that got mekicked out the second time and led out in handcuffs from the school. He didn'trecognize me, but I saw him, and I didn't know what to do. I was frozen; I wasthis grown man now, years out of the movement, and I was sweating and I wastrembling. But I decided I had to do something. And I decided I needed tosuffer under the weight of my past, because for five years I had tried tooutrun it. I'd tried to make new friends and cover my tattoos with longsleeves, and I wouldn't admit it because I was afraid of being judged the sameway I had judged other people. Well, I decided I was going to chase Mr. Holmesout to the parking lot -- probably not the smartest decision that I made.

不出所料，按著命運(yùn)的因果報(bào)應(yīng)，就在我進(jìn)學(xué)校的前幾個(gè)小時(shí)，走過(guò)我身邊的是Johnny Holmes先生，我曾經(jīng)打過(guò)架的強(qiáng)悍黑人保安。這事導(dǎo)致我第二次被開(kāi)除，我還戴著手銬離開(kāi)了學(xué)校。他沒(méi)有認(rèn)出來(lái)我，但是我看見(jiàn)了他，而我不知道該做什么。我僵在了那里；我是一個(gè)成年人的，離開(kāi)了運(yùn)動(dòng)很多年了，而我當(dāng)時(shí)滿身是汗，全身發(fā)抖。但我決定必須做點(diǎn)什么。我決定我需要背負(fù)過(guò)去的重量，為它遭受痛苦，因?yàn)槲迥陙?lái)我一直試圖避開(kāi)它。我曾嘗試交新的朋友，用長(zhǎng)袖衣服遮住我的刺青，而我不敢承認(rèn)，因?yàn)槲液ε卤辉u(píng)判，就像我當(dāng)初評(píng)判他人一樣。于是，我決定去追霍姆斯先生一直到停車場(chǎng)－－大概不是我做過(guò)的最聰明的決定。

13:33

(Laughter)

（笑）

13:34

But when I found him, he was getting intohis car, and I tapped him on the shoulder. And when he turned around and herecognized me, he took a step back because he was afraid. And I didn't knowwhat to say. Finally, the words came out of my mouth, and all I could think tosay was, "I'm sorry." And he embraced me, and he forgave me. And heencouraged me to forgive myself. He recognized that it wasn't the story of somebroken go-nowhere kid who was going to just join a gang and go to prison. Heknew that this was the story of every young person who was vulnerable, who wassearching for identity, community and purpose, and then hit a wall and was unableto find it and went down a dark path. And he made me promise one thing, that Iwould tell my story to whoever would listen. That was 18 years ago, and I'vebeen doing it ever since.

當(dāng)我找到他的時(shí)候，他正要上車，于是我拍了下他的肩膀。當(dāng)他轉(zhuǎn)過(guò)身來(lái)并認(rèn)出我時(shí)，他因?yàn)榭謶滞笸肆艘徊?。而我不知道該說(shuō)什么。終于，字句從我的嘴中脫出，而所有我能想說(shuō)的是：“我很抱歉。” 然后他擁抱了我，并原諒了我。他還鼓勵(lì)我原諒自己。他看出了這不只是一個(gè)破碎的、一無(wú)所成的孩子的故事，一個(gè)只會(huì)加入黑幫、蹲監(jiān)獄的人。他知道這是每一個(gè)容易受傷的年輕人的故事，他們?cè)趯ふ易约旱纳矸?、集體、和目標(biāo)，碰壁了，找不回來(lái)了，然后走上了黑暗的道路。他讓我承諾了一件事：我要把我的故事 講給任何一個(gè)想聽(tīng)的人。這是 18 年前，從那時(shí)起我就一直在做。

14:38

(Applause)

（掌聲）

14:49

You might be asking yourself right now: Howdoes a good kid from a hardworking immigrant family end up going down such adark path? One word: potholes. That's right. Potholes. I had a lot of potholeswhen I was kid. We all had them -- you know, the things in life that we hitthat invariably just kind of nudge us off our path, and if they remainunresolved or untreated or not dealt with, sometimes we can get dangerouslylost down pretty dark corridors. Potholes can be things like trauma, abuse,unemployment, neglect, untreated mental health conditions, even privilege. Andif we hit enough potholes on our journey in life, and we don't have theresources or the help to navigate around them or to pull us out, well,sometimes good people end up doing bad things.

你現(xiàn)在可能會(huì)問(wèn)自己：一個(gè)從勤勞工作的移民家庭來(lái)的好孩子是怎么走下了這么一條黑暗的道路？一個(gè)詞：凹洞。沒(méi)錯(cuò)，凹洞。我小時(shí)候有著很多凹洞。我們都曾有過(guò)－－你知道的，我們?nèi)松凶驳降臇|西無(wú)可避免的把我們輕輕推離自己的道路，而如果它們一直沒(méi)被解決，沒(méi)被治愈，沒(méi)被處理，我們有時(shí)會(huì)危險(xiǎn)地走丟到黑暗的角落。凹洞可以是創(chuàng)傷、虐待、失業(yè)、 忽視、 沒(méi)被治療的心理疾病、 甚至特權(quán)。而如果我們?cè)谌松穆猛旧?碰到了很多凹洞，并且沒(méi)有資源或者協(xié)助 來(lái)幫我們繞開(kāi)它們 或把我們拉出來(lái)，有的時(shí)候好人也會(huì)做出壞事。

15:52

One such person who had potholes isDarrell. Darrell is from upstate New York. He had read my memoir, and he wasreally upset about the ending. You see, I'd gotten out of the movement and hewas still in. And he emailed me and he said, "I didn't really like the waythat turned out." And I said, "Well, I'm sorry."

其中一個(gè)有凹洞的人是Darrell。達(dá)雷爾來(lái)自紐約州北部。他讀過(guò)我的回憶錄，對(duì)結(jié)局感到非常失望。你看，我已經(jīng)離開(kāi)了運(yùn)動(dòng)，而他還在其中。于是他發(fā)了封電子郵件給我，說(shuō)：“我不是很喜歡最后結(jié)局的發(fā)展。”然后我說(shuō)，“喔，我很抱歉。”

16:13

(Laughter)

（笑）

16:15

"But if you want to talk about it, wecould certainly do that."

“但是如果你想聊聊，我們當(dāng)然可以。”

16:18

And after a couple of weeks of going backand forth with Darrell, I learned he was a 31-year-old military veteran who hadbeen injured and was really angry about not being able to go to Afghanistan tokill Muslims. And one day on the phone, he told me that he had seen a Muslimman in the park praying, and that all he wanted to do was kick him in the face.I flew to Buffalo the next day, and I sat down with Darrell, and I asked him,"Have you ever met a Muslim person before?" And he said, "No!Why the hell would I want to do that? They're evil. I don't want anything to dowith them." I said, "OK." So I excused myself, and I went intothe bathroom and I took my phone out in the bathroom, and I Googled the localmosque, and I called them very quietly from the bathroom, and I said,"Excuse me, imam, I need a favor. I have a Christian man who would reallylove to learn more about your religion."

和Darrell來(lái)往回信的幾周中，我了解到他是一個(gè) 31 歲的因傷退役的軍人，他很氣憤自己不能去阿富汗殺穆斯林。一天，在電話上，他告訴我他看到了一個(gè)穆斯林男子在公園祈禱，而他唯一想做的是一腳踢到他的臉上。第二天，我飛到了水牛城，和Darrell坐下來(lái)談，然后我問(wèn)他：“你曾認(rèn)識(shí)過(guò)任何一個(gè)穆斯林嗎？”他說(shuō)，“沒(méi)有！ 我為什么見(jiàn)鬼了要這么做？ 他們是邪惡的。我不想和他們扯上任何關(guān)系?！?我說(shuō)，“ 好吧?！?于是我走進(jìn)了洗手間，拿出了我的手機(jī)，谷歌搜索了當(dāng)?shù)氐那逭嫠?，然后我在從洗手間很小聲地打電話給他們，我說(shuō)：“不好意思，伊瑪目［領(lǐng)袖］，我需要幫忙。我這有一個(gè)基督教徒非常想了解你們的宗教?！?/p>

17:20

(Laughter)

（笑）

17:22

"Do you mind if we stop by?"

“你會(huì)介意我們?nèi)グ菰L嗎？”

17:26

Well, it took some convincing for Darrellto go, but finally we got there, and when I knocked on the door, the imam saidhe only had 15 minutes left for us, because he was preparing for a prayerservice. I said, "We'll take it." We went in, and two and a halfhours later, we came out after hugging and crying and, very strangely, bondingover Chuck Norris for some reason.

我花了不少功夫來(lái)說(shuō)服Darrell，不過(guò)最終我們到了那里。我敲了敲門，伊瑪目說(shuō)他只有 15 分鐘留給我們，因?yàn)樗枰獪?zhǔn)備禱告。我說(shuō)，“沒(méi)問(wèn)題?！?我們走了進(jìn)去，兩個(gè)半小時(shí)后，我們已經(jīng)歷了淚水和擁抱，很奇怪的，我們還因?yàn)椴榭?middot;諾里斯拉近了距離。［動(dòng)作片演員］

17:50

(Laughter)

（笑）

17:51

I don't know what it was about that, butthat's what happened. And I'm happy to say now that Darrell and the imam, youcan often find them at the local falafel stand, having lunch together.

我不知道那是怎么回事，但它就是發(fā)生了?，F(xiàn)在我可以很開(kāi)心的說(shuō)，你經(jīng)常能看到達(dá)雷爾和伊瑪目在當(dāng)?shù)氐闹袞|小吃攤一起吃午飯。

18:03

(Applause)

（掌聲）

18:12

You see, it's our disconnection from eachother. Hatred is born of ignorance. Fear is its father, and isolation is itsmother. When we don't understand something, we tend to be afraid of it, and ifwe keep ourselves from it, that fear grows, and sometimes, it turns intohatred. Since I've left the movement, I've helped over a hundred peopledisengage from extremist movements, from white supremacist groups --

你可以看出，問(wèn)題是人們?nèi)狈β?lián)系。仇恨來(lái)源于無(wú)知?？謶质瞧涓福铝⑹瞧淠?。當(dāng)我們不理解一個(gè)東西時(shí)，我們常常會(huì)害怕它，而如果我們讓自己遠(yuǎn)離它，這恐懼會(huì)加大，有時(shí)會(huì)變成仇恨。自從離開(kāi)運(yùn)動(dòng)，我已經(jīng)幫助了超過(guò)一百個(gè)人脫離極端主義運(yùn)動(dòng)，白人至上群體－－

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